Thought I had struck gold on the King Tiger!

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:26 pm

My main gripe with the KT is this:

21st, fine. Sell your KT at around $100. That's cool. But at least IMPROVE your molding!!!!

What the heck. This King Tiger is akin to the first series P-51D. Yeah, it's THAT bad. It's that TOYISH.

Why can't 21st improve their armor? Their aircraft keeps getting better and better, but their armor pieces looks like it's designed for little kids.

And don't give me that, "Oh, these are toys!" excuse. If that's so, then we should all stop asking for detailed and accurate details on 21st aircrafts as well.

Like I said, from the first glance, their 88mm is WORTH the $100 price tag IMHO, because of its level of detail (we shall see), but not for the KT.

Yoxford · Post by **Yoxford** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:36 pm

Very well said GD.

The 88 looks fantastic.

I will wait to see the KT in person, but if the pictures posted are of the production model, I will be sadly disappointed.

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:05 pm

Tmanthegreat:

“Gosh, I'm sounding like King o Fools, aren't I?”

Welcome to the dark side, young padawan.

I think some people here may have cut them too much slack of late, but that’s their prerogative as their customers.

parrish333:

“A lot of us would have bought multiple KTs and 88s for $50 ea. So just buy 1 of ea. for $100 and keep the company alive.”

The question is why should we keep the company alive, unless they can’t keep themselves afloat? Capitalism cuts both ways. It’s a two-way street, mind you, and I don’t feel personally indebted to any company, so I don’t have to show them any gratitude (especially, when they consistently refuse to tackle what tman has described as “glaring QC issues”).

Likewise, I really can’t see how passing on something I did NOT want in the first place is a stab in the back for 21st (not that we “should” support anyone as a matter of principle, and least of all a company which has torpedoed their competitors’ efforts in the past).

OTOH, and as far as backstabbing goes in the XD realm, I think it’s safe to say that it’s the “I’ll wait till they’re all on clearance” type of customers who need to take a hard look at the mirror before casting the first rhetorical stone on this issue.

Purchasing a KT at $100 now ain’t going to make up for all the items that have been sold in the past which were on drastic clearance. Sure, it’d have been stupid to pay full price for them when you could buy them for peanuts, but what goes around…

(And no, before anyone suggests this again, I don't want a free plane, thank you).

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:22 pm

Has any one here seen the 21st King Tiger up close in their own hands…..I did not think so. I can see if there was a complaint on one thing but everything 21st does is wrong. This 21st century bashing is getting old real fast

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:57 pm

It's all about price point for me. Right now, I am completely turned off by the climbing prices on 1:18. Trust me, I fully understand why they are up there, but it's getting to that point that the "good deal" factor is fading. I can't bring myself to getting the ME-262 nightfighter for this reason. If the KT comes out anywhere near $100, I'm not interested, plain and simple.

Now let's look at the investment side of things. I always buy 2 of each plane/tank and sometimes vehicles/figures for investment and alway have since I started collecting back in 2001. Now, if the KT comes out at the $100 mark, the resellability plummets. See, people love the inexpensive but realistic stuff like myself. On E-Bay, people go over and above on items that they felt were a great value, even if they get ripped off in the end. I can pretty much guarrantee you that trying to get a profit off the resale of a $100+ collectible goes pretty much out the window. Let's look at that Corgi B-17 that was over $100 and that will most likely never see an appreciable increase in value since people like myself tend to draw a line on just how much we are willing to spend on a given item. Sad but true. This is why high ticket models just don't sell and companies release models like Easy Models that are easy to sell....

I just don't see 21st making it on limited releases if the price point remains $70+ on new stuff. I got a lot of other hobbies that that $70 can go a lot farther on.....

....and NO, I am never getting back into 1:32 or 1:72 stuff. No more small toys....

-Ski

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:59 pm

VMF115 wrote:Has any one here seen the 21st King Tiger up close in their own hands…..I did not think so. I can see if there was a complaint on one thing but everything 21st does is wrong. This 21st century bashing is getting old real fast

I don't need to see it close up in my hands. It's toyish faults is glaringly obvious.

People are quick to point out the FOV Tiger's faults (a $25-dollar tank).

But if we do it on 21st's $100 KT, you want to,

"Whoa...hold on there, buddy..."

I'm not bashing 21st. I'm bashing their $100 toy. For a hundred dollars, you can get a fairly accurate 1/16 tank with radio controls, battery, proportional drive system, working tracks, working suspensions, etc etc.

Have you seen the new 1/16th tanks being produced lately? They're a beauty.

Now those things are bigger and more complicated than the KT will ever be.

And you can get one for less than a $100.

And what's wrong with "bashing" a company if the complaints have merits?

Did people here lie and made up stuff?

21st don't care about you. Heck, they even TOLD us they don't care about us by telling us that we make up on less than 10% of their sales, or something like that.

parrish333 · Post by **parrish333** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:21 pm

[quote="King O' Fools"]
parrish333:

“A lot of us would have bought multiple KTs and 88s for $50 ea. So just buy 1 of ea. for $100 and keep the company alive.”

The question is why should we keep the company alive, unless they can’t keep themselves afloat? Capitalism cuts both ways. It’s a two-way street, mind you, and I don’t feel personally indebted to any company, so I don’t have to show them any gratitude (especially, when they consistently refuse to tackle what tman has described as “glaring QC issues”).
quote]

I totally get that - I'm also not blindly loyal to 21C or any other manufacturer. I just mean that our choices seem to be:

1) pay more for pretty good 1:18 toys/models
2) boycott them and watch all these companies shut down

I'd rather have something than nothing. The competition between 21C and AT keeps the quality up (past what it would be otherwise). If we don't support them our only options will be BBI - who is very sporadic and uncommitted to our hobby - or FOV who has good figures but whose vehicles are markedly worse in detail. And FOV seems committed (as makes sense given their Target-exclusive contract) to only producing the very popular and well-known items that have already been done.

There's also Pegasus - I love their approach of doing off-beat fun choices targeted to collectors instead of mass-market. But their price point is higher already than what we're used to.

But I think that is precisely the upside to all of this. If 21C was to be sold exclusively to online retailers at higher prices, we might actually have a
better chance of seeing some of the models we all clamor for. Look at AT - they're going to do a Skyraider, an awesome plane that 21C or BBI never would have done in 1:18 because it doesn't have enough mass appeal. Yeah, we'll pay more, but 21C will have all the more reason to listen to our design choices, b/c we'll make up a bigger percentage of the buyers.

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:44 pm

GooglyDoogly wrote:
VMF115 wrote:Has any one here seen the 21st King Tiger up close in their own hands…..I did not think so. I can see if there was a complaint on one thing but everything 21st does is wrong. This 21st century bashing is getting old real fast
I don't need to see it close up in my hands. It's toyish faults is glaringly obvious.

People are quick to point out the FOV Tiger's faults (a $25-dollar tank).

But if we do it on 21st's $100 KT, you want to,

"Whoa...hold on there, buddy..."

I'm not bashing 21st. I'm bashing their $100 toy. For a hundred dollars, you can get a fairly accurate 1/16 tank with radio controls, battery, proportional drive system, working tracks, working suspensions, etc etc.

Have you seen the new 1/16th tanks being produced lately? They're a beauty.

Now those things are bigger and more complicated than the KT will ever be.

And you can get one for less than a $100.

And what's wrong with "bashing" a company if the complaints have merits?

Did people here lie and made up stuff?

21st don't care about you. Heck, they even TOLD us they don't care about us by telling us that we make up on less than 10% of their sales, or something like that.

AMEN Googly, AMEN!!!

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:48 pm

[CAT]CplSlade · Post by **[CAT]CplSlade** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:18 pm

STUKA wrote:Did anyone else notice the 21st website earlier tonight. For about two days now I have not been able to get on - and I usually check once or twice a day. I was able to get on tonight but my computer froze on the site - when I went back to it the server connection was gone.

was the news showing 3-31-08 for two different Kingtiger repaints - one looked like the one we already saw and the other was a camo - but the site froze when I was zooming in on it. Someone tell me I didnt have too much coffee and they saw the three pictures too!!

I didn't see the pics, but looking at the article numbers in the URL I see the Stuka pics are news item #329, while the previous news item was #327.

Perhaps the missing #328 are your KT pics?

Post by **aferguson** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:51 pm

"Yeah, we'll pay more, but 21C will have all the more reason to listen to our design choices, b/c we'll make up a bigger percentage of the buyers."

Amen, brother. I've never had the impression that 21c listened much to us. Afterall, what do we know? We're only a bunch of history buffs and aviation and armour enthusiasts....what could our opinions possibly be worth?

Now all of a sudden they don't have the fat cat WM contract and they may just actually start listening to us...and discover, hey you know what?....they did know what they were talking about.

We need a Spitfire IX, Fw-190A and a T-34.

Oh, and the Mosquito would be killer.

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:23 pm

Funny thing is - I don't wait for XD to go down in price - back in the day - you could just walk into WM and find the lower clearanced plane.

But that conditions the customer to pass on the next full price plane and possibly wait.

21st should have had something to say about that lack of management - but they were trying their best to survive.

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:33 pm

I don't think anyone is going to change their stance on 21C and the KT/88MM price point.

I just wonder what TKO must think. If I were him or Roy I would give us the big finger and not listen to one damn thing said on this forum and quit communicating on new releases.

Let me guess, the answers will be that 21C information is unreliable so it doesn't matter anyway...I am starting to think that most wouldn't be happy no matter what 21C does.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:52 pm

I seriously doubt Roy or TKO are reading this thread right now while painting their nails and listening to Justin Timberlake and say,

"Oh my gosh! They are so mean! Let's go write about this on our diaries!"

Meaning, they're grown men and could actually take some criticism. I actually give them more credit than that.

If Jason can respond like a man to our nagging questions about where's the SBD by explaining the reasons for the delay, and actually showed us some of the building process, I seriously doubt TKO and Roy are gonna be crying about our meanie talks about 21st.

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:22 pm

Roy did read this thread!!!

After crying a bit - he decided to shop 21st products to Hallmark as part of their Disney theme.

and I would have gotten away with an 88 if it wasnt for your harsh comments!
Damn you insensitive kids!!!!

Post by **aferguson** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:36 pm

olifant wrote: "I am starting to think that most wouldn't be happy no matter what 21C does."

You're still fairly new to this hobby.....we'll talk in five years and see if your opinion has changed..

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:41 pm

One thing is evident based on the discussion today... We are all very passionate about this hobby and we all care about it.

In reading the above posts I think many folks have raised some interesting points / facts. It is true that the 88 takes advantage of a more recent tooling process as it was created from scratch in 2007. The King Tiger uses a tooling pattern that has been in process for a couple years now. So naturally it will not be as advanced. The size of the tank and it's construction are just one of MANY factors that are driving the need for higher prices.

The 88 is a more complex tooling pattern and rightly so as it's detail is more visible being a cannon and not an armor plate tank. Some might ask why release a tool pattern that is a couple years old. I think there could be many reasons why and I believe that from a business perspective they would make a lot of sense. So I am not going to fault 21C for this decision.

As for increased price... Well I don't think all the dust has settled on this issue on both sides so I choose to wait and see where things will land going forward. I think that the market for 1:18 is indeed shifting and that these changes are going to force increased cost to produce the kinds of products that we have come to expect. I also see a future where fewer pieces are built, produced and offered in one year.

There are frankly so many factors that are driving this need. It's just the way that things are headed. But like I said- I don't think this is the end of the world and if 1:18 is going to die than someone forgot to tell 21C because I know for a fact that new- unannounced 1:18 product is being tooled as we speak.

21C does indeed read this forum as well as myself. The fan opinion here does count for something. Lets see how this all plays out. In the end if prices are set too steep and you choose not to purchase or you simply can't make the purchase than that will eventually come out in the wash. But for now I believe 21C will continue to build better and better models even if they have to be sold at a premium price through specialty stores to the more serious collector. It will be interesting to see where it all goes.

As for my taste in music- NO on Justin Timberlake, I don't have a diary, and the only thing I have ever painted is Model aircraft and the occasional bedroom when my wife decides I need something "productive to do" Roy and I DO think you guys are mean sometimes though J/K.

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:55 pm

Been waiting for this site to put up the prices. http://www.worldwariiattic.com/xd_axis_ground_forces

TOOL · Post by **TOOL** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:20 pm

I personally think it would be hard for any industry to double their prices on their next release and do well. I can see an increase to $69 or so for the KT and the 88 to whatever factors, especially if they are superior. I was very excited about picking these pieces up but am not a fan of ordering through e-tailers and paying shipping costs so the decision to not be in brick and motor stores alienates me as a customer. As a long time collector of XD since 2001 I have invested serious money as have others in 21st century toys.....just check out the pictures of your collection thread. I admit it I love to army build and have multiples and this totally cramps my style. I am quite disappointed with this announcement.

I am still miffed at the fact that they announced the F-4, Mig, and the B-25 with no sign whatsoever that these will be produced. If your going to announce it you should make it.....plain and simple.

I love their stuff and a huge fan, but you have to keep your loyal customers happy (white glove program or something)

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:58 pm

tko211 wrote:One thing is evident based on the discussion today... We are all very passionate about this hobby and we all care about it.

In reading the above posts I think many folks have raised some interesting points / facts. It is true that the 88 takes advantage of a more recent tooling process as it was created from scratch in 2007. The King Tiger uses a tooling pattern that has been in process for a couple years now. So naturally it will not be as advanced. The size of the tank and it's construction are just one of MANY factors that are driving the need for higher prices.

The 88 is a more complex tooling pattern and rightly so as it's detail is more visible being a cannon and not an armor plate tank. Some might ask why release a tool pattern that is a couple years old. I think there could be many reasons why and I believe that from a business perspective they would make a lot of sense. So I am not going to fault 21C for this decision.

The 88mm is beautiful. You'll have no arguments from me about that.

And that's pretty much the crux of my "bashings". I really don't mind a high price on the 88mm, because I can see the improvements in tooling. I can't wait to get one so I could nitpick it. ;P But judging from the photos you have shown us, the 88mm is a winner.

But the King Tiger? Nah. You could clearly see its many many faults even in the pictures, and if the Toy Fair pics are any indication, even the camo job looks bad. As you said, it might have been awesome if it was released a couple of years ago. But now? It shows its age, especially if you compare it to 21st's recent new releases.

We as a group always want more detail and accuracy when it comes to airplanes (OMG the Mustang finally has a proper looking RAKE!!!!), but why do we have to settle for toyish-looking tanks?

This is the KING TIGER. The big daddy of WWII tanks. 21st should have done a better job on it. Heck, in some ways, their Sherman looks better.

As for increased price... Well I don't think all the dust has settled on this issue on both sides so I choose to wait and see where things will land going forward. I think that the market for 1:18 is indeed shifting and that these changes are going to force increased cost to produce the kinds of products that we have come to expect. I also see a future where fewer pieces are built, produced and offered in one year.

There are frankly so many factors that are driving this need. It's just the way that things are headed. But like I said- I don't think this is the end of the world and if 1:18 is going to die than someone forgot to tell 21C because I know for a fact that new- unannounced 1:18 product is being tooled as we speak.

And I think a lot of us here understand that higher prices is a reality and there's no way getting around it.

But it would serve 21st well to remember to IMPROVE their products, instead of relying on people buying their products just because it's the only one in 1/18th scale.

21C does indeed read this forum as well as myself. The fan opinion here does count for something.

I hope so, because I seriously doubt some Mom would buy a $100 plastic toy for their kids. Then again, if XD stuff becomes a fad like Tickle-Me-Elmo....

I believe 21C will continue to build better and better models even if they have to be sold at a premium price through specialty stores to the more serious collector. It will be interesting to see where it all goes.

And I think for the most part, that's all we ever want. Better and better models. Not re-hash of old stuff at premium prices.

As for my taste in music- NO on Justin Timberlake, I don't have a diary, and the only thing I have ever painted is Model aircraft and the occasional bedroom when my wife decides I need something "productive to do" Roy and I DO think you guys are mean sometimes though J/K.

yeah, I know...the Justin Timberlake comment was a low-blow on my part..and I apologize for that.

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:21 pm

aferguson wrote:olifant wrote: "I am starting to think that most wouldn't be happy no matter what 21C does."

You're still fairly new to this hobby.....we'll talk in five years and see if your opinion has changed..

From one old XD vet to another.......LOL!

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:11 pm

How about one of these?

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:52 pm

21st actually took his first born son as payment. A daughter just wouldn't cut the mustard for it.

Threetoughtrucks · Post by **Threetoughtrucks** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:26 am

It gets a little silly when you have a "toy" that you need a 1/1 crew just to move it around

I have reached my limit with the new 1/6 DID SdKfz 251. It is metal, weighs over 50lbs and is my limit for weight and bulk. The thing sits on my floor and actually leaves track prints on my rug, but it is gonna live on the floor with my other "big stuff". I'm afraid to put this monster on a shelf because of the weight. This guy in the wheelchair with the KT...... what the heck is he gonna do with it????

The "dark side" just can't get any better.

TTT