1/18 Joachim Peiper figure -Malmedy massacre

[Razor17019]

I really like when we have diorama contests here on the board. It makes me go learn information more in-depth that I have not had the reason to learn before (kind of like being back in school). Anyway, so I am going through pics and information on Battle of the Bulge and I run across the Malmedy Massacre by Kampfgruppe Peiper. The name Peiper rings a bell on a figure/diorama item dragon produced and I am wondering why a figure was produced on a man who was put on trial and convicted of killing unarmed US prisoners during the Battle of the Bulge?

[GooglyDoogly]

There's still some debate whether Peiper actually knew about that massacre (I myself believe he never knew about it until after the fact), but in the end, it doesn't really matter. It's his men who did the killing. So that's his responsibility.

As to why produce a figure like Peiper? Simple enough. People are fascinated about WWII Germans, particularly Nazis. I gotta admit, I love WWII German armor and aircraft, but I don't worship them the way some people do. So much that they actually sound gleeful when talking about kill ratios, and how Allied armor were so inferior.

I never got why 21st (was it 21st?) made those limited SS figures in parade uniforms. Exactly how are you supposed to play with those things? By re-creating the Nuremberg parade?

[mediump]

I found the end of his life to be very interesting...
"In 1972 Peiper went to live in Traves, Haute-Saône, France, and supported himself as a translator of English-language military books into German. He sent his wife to safety in Germany following explicit death threats, but himself remained in France, arming himself with a shotgun and accompanied by his dog. He was killed on July 14, 1976 in a fire bomb attack on his house by an armed gang calling itself the "Avengers." The "Avengers" were never identified, but were suspected to be French Communists or former Résistants."

[Razor17019]

I can understand a company making a Rommel figure. The man was a great and well respected General.

*Side note: Charles During (actor) was one of the US soldiers that managed to escape and tell the world about the Malmedy Massacre. Also this was not the only time or occurance that the men of Kampfgruppe Peiper killed unarmed US soldiers.

[aferguson]

the SS were fairly well known for shooting prisoners towards the end of the war, unfortunately. They felt that Germany could not afford to waste resources caring for prisoners.

Many Canadian prisoners were also shot by the SS shortly after Normandy.

[King O' Fools]

There's still some debate whether Peiper actually knew about that massacre (I myself believe he never knew about it until after the fact), but in the end, it doesn't really matter. It's his men who did the killing. So that's his responsibility.

As to why produce a figure like Peiper? Simple enough. People are fascinated about WWII Germans, particularly Nazis. I gotta admit, I love WWII German armor and aircraft, but I don't worship them the way some people do. So much that they actually sound gleeful when talking about kill ratios, and how Allied armor were so inferior.

I never got why 21st (was it 21st?) made those limited SS figures in parade uniforms. Exactly how are you supposed to play with those things? By re-creating the Nuremberg parade?

Well, as some of you may already know, I can get a wee bit pissed off when some people start making up excuses for Germany's wackiest generation, pretending there were no nazis in charge of the country and the armed forces during WWII as direct result of the *German* people voting them into office, or claiming that those who donned the uniform of the Third Reich were simply "misguided fools" or had no option but to kill or be killed (i.e. that they were simply "following orders," which seems to me is every war criminal's preferred line of defense).

OTOH, I'm one of those fellas who are fascinated with the Third Reich's regalia, memorabilia, marching music, etc.

I really wouldn't mind buying the SS men in their parade uniforms… I love how they look. They used to appeal to me in a way the Allied uniforms wouldn't. But I'm not going to go the Leni Riefenstahl route, build them a parade ground and have them march to the sounds of <I>Horst Wessel</I> either (even though I do like the tune). Does that mean that I somehow respect the people (military and civilian) who were fighting under the now "verboten" swastika during WWII (i.e. Germany's wackiest generation)?

Nope. Not at all.

To me this is a no-brainer.

In fact, it would have been kinda nice if they had all been sent to Russian POW camps for a little re-education commie-style. You won't hear me complain about the merits of Sir Arthur 'Bomber' Harris's firebombing strategy either. (It's a good thing someone in the Résistance decided to pay this war criminal a visit and pull a Dresden on his French villa. I tend to think of it as some sort of poetic justice for nazi atrocities.)

I don't draw a line between nazi-party apparatchiks and the German populace, just like I don't differentiate between the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS troops. That's because I tend to take Dr. Goebbels at his word when he speaks of a <I>totaller krieg</I> being waged by Germany against the Allies. So to me Rommel and Peiper are exactly the same BS. And I don't regret that they died unnatural, untimely deaths.

So I'd say collecting Third Reich memorabilia (even if it's action figures depicting the real thing) has nothing to do with "respect" or "admiration" — let alone "worship" — for anything Germany and the Nazis stood for in those years (Lebensraum, anyone?).

(Of course, I understand that this may not be the case with the fruitcakes at Stormfront and I certainly do have a problem with over-enthusiastic present day Germans displaying these nazi era "collectibles" given their collective past.)

You can love the figures without espousing the ideology, IMO.

Sorry for the long rant. I hope this post is not too controversial in this PC day and age.

[ostketten]

certainly do have a problem with over-enthusiastic present day Germans displaying these nazi era "collectibles" given their collective past

Actually this is a moot point...it is ILLEGAL to display Nazi symbols in Germany. As for all Germans bearing a collective guilt for every crime that was ever committed by Nazis during the war, sorry but I don't concur. Frankly, I think it's a little too broad of a brush to paint the entire German nation as war criminals, and for the record, I absolutely do not consider myself in any way to be an apologist for German atrocities committed during WWII. I do however agree that collecting Nazi memorabilia doesn't necessarily make one a Nazi sympathizer.

[digger]

I never got why 21st (was it 21st?) made those limited SS figures in parade uniforms...

I love those figs. I like to keep my friends close, and my enemies closer..

[GooglyDoogly]

You can love the figures without espousing the ideology, IMO.

Couldn't agree with you more. It's just that there are some toy/figures out there that made me go WTF when i first saw them.

Like the Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler 1/6 figures. (I think there's a Josef Stalin too). I mean...who would buy those things?!

Maybe if they're doing a diorama of Himmler laying dead on the floor, or something.

But I don't agree that all Germans back then are guilty. There were opposition groups against the Nazi regime. But they seemed to be silenced easily by the vast majority of Germans.

Let's face it. Before the war and during the war when they were winning and seemed invincible, the vast majority of Germans happily embraced the idea of Lebensraum, and delighted in the stolen goods that their soldiers sent back to them.

I couldn't blame them. It was war. The victors gets to enjoy the spoils. But I cringe every time I hear someone excuse the German populace back then.

They wanted war. They brought war upon people that didn't want war (and seriously, if the Nazi apologists today are right that the Nazis just wanted the world to be safe from Communism, then why did they attacked the Western democracies first?).

So The German people reaped what they planted. A total war. And they lost.

It kinda reminds me of Otto Carius, a famed Tiger tank ace. In his book, he talk derisively about Allied soldiers, and got angry by his "mistreatment".

Hell, if he didn't like the treatment he received from the Allies, he was VERY welcome to surrender to the Russians.

[olifant]

The SS atrocities are well documented but remember, the victors write the history books. Is there anyone here who believes no allied soldiers every acted outside of the rules of war?

Before everyone starts furiously responding, this is not a defense of the Third Reich. But I do believe that in war men from all countries do things they would never do otherwise.

[Morian Miner]

From the toy side, I've kicked this around personally for a long time. Before 21C, I really was not into the "real" military toys. So, I was hesitant to buy too many Germans (or Vietnamese) at the time because those were the "bad guys" and were "evil". But, the German hardware and uniforms have always fascinated me - it just looked cool.

So, over the years I've got used to buying the stuff by realizing its different to have something of historical significance, and something else to idolize it.

Now, that doesn't mean I generally don't have my German stuff out on display for everyone to see. I keep it where only certain people will ever see it. The reason - most people don't understand the difference like I mentioned above. Even another buddy of mine has gotten crap from people coming over, seeing his German panzers, and asking if he was a Nazi.

[GooglyDoogly]

The SS atrocities are well documented but remember, the victors write the history books. Is there anyone here who believes no allied soldiers every acted outside of the rules of war?

Before everyone starts furiously responding, this is not a defense of the Third Reich. But I do believe that in war men from all countries do things they would never do otherwise.

Yep Allied soldiers committed atrocities too, like the shooting German POWs.

But those were rare occurrence and more of an exception rather than the rule.

And many documented Allied shootings of POWs were in revenge for German atrocities, like the Malmedy massacre, or the killing in cold blood of General Rose when he was trying to surrender.

[STUKA]

I'm just upset - that everytime I order him he is suddenly out of stock.......

[King O' Fools]

certainly do have a problem with over-enthusiastic present day Germans displaying these nazi era "collectibles" given their collective past

Actually this is a moot point...it is ILLEGAL to display Nazi symbols in Germany. As for all Germans bearing a collective guilt for every crime that was ever committed during the war, sorry but I don't concur. Frankly, I think it's a little too broad of a brush to paint the entire German nation as war criminals, and for the record, I absolutely do not consider myself in any way to be an apologist for German atrocities committed during WWII. I do however agree that collecting Nazi memorabilia doesn't necessarily make one a Nazi sympathizer.

Well, let me make myself clear:

First of all, I don't think present day Germans (those who were born or came of age after the end of WWII, at any rate) are in any way responsible for what happened 70 years ago. Period.

As for the "all Germans bearing a collective guilt for every crime that was ever committed during the war" statement, I do believe that Germany's wackiest generation bears responsibility for Nazi crimes. However, this isn't the same as "paint[ing] the entire German nation as war criminals."

Were they collectively responsible for electing that little man with the funny moustache as their Führer? You bet. They were collectively and morally responsible for what happened under their watch and for the crimes that were committed in their name. But that doesn't necessarily make each and everyone of them a war criminal (the case of Pope Benedict comes to mind, in striking contrast with that of former SS-volunteer and onion-peeler-über-alles Günter Grass).

Also, displaying a swastika (e.g. in the tail of an XD aircraft) shouldn't be illegal per se in any country. That is patently absurd on the face of it. It's criminalizing history for the sake of some sanitized PC version thereof and can only lead to ludicrous situations, like 21st "editing out" the nazi — but not the Japanese — kill flags from their BBD.

On the other hand, having a closet full of Nazi regalia (i.e. daggers, flags and the like arranged in shrine-like fashion) might prove a little controversial if you're a German expat living on Southern Spain (and, believe me, I know what I'm talking about). This is what I find morally reprehensible, to put it mildly.

[aferguson]

ok......i think this topic has run it's course.

Back to toy talk....