F4 Phantom on a back burner

[CW4USARMY]

This is for CW4USARMY-
(Readers Digest Version of my last post)

F-4 Phantom is NOT a dead project.
F-4 Phantom project is behind schedule.
F-4 Will NOT be released in 2007.

Like I said, at least you are trying. Hell, I'm in the Army so I recognize blind loyalty when I see it
Hope your "Readers Digest" comment wasn't meant to somehow insinuate
that I couldn't understand your post. Believe me, I understand your posts clearly. (that is, 21st rarely tells you squat and it is usually long after we found out from another retailer, etailer or other member), and somehow we should appreciate their lack of communication or concern for their website and fans.

All we really need from 21st is what we in the Army call BLUF....
Bottom Line Up Front. Just tell us what we don't know and in periodic intervals. Obviously 21st doesn't tell you much and there is no method to the madness with the timing and content of what they do share, but that's OK, just tell us what little that they do.
It's a shame that 21st doesn't do you, their website (or us for that matter) any justice with their information/misinformation updates (or lack thereof).

[CW4USARMY]

This is for CW4USARMY-
(Readers Digest Version of my last post)

F-4 Phantom is NOT a dead project.
F-4 Phantom project is behind schedule.
F-4 Will NOT be released in 2007.

Like I said, at least you are trying. Hell, I'm in the Army so I recognize blind loyalty when I see it
Hope your "Readers Digest" comment wasn't meant to somehow insinuate
that I couldn't understand your post. Believe me, I understand your posts clearly. (that is, 21st rarely tells you squat and it is usually long after we found out from another retailer, etailer or other member), and somehow we should appreciate their lack of communication or concern for their website and fans.

All we really need from 21st is what we in the Army call BLUF....
Bottom Line Up Front. Just tell us what we don't know and in periodic intervals. Obviously 21st doesn't tell you much and there is no method to the madness with the timing and content of what they do share, but that's OK, just tell us what little that they do.
It's a shame that 21st doesn't do you, their website (or us for that matter) any justice with their information/misinformation updates (or lack thereof).

This is for my buddy TKO!

[WGP Klaus]

But from what I have been able to gather, it looks like the Phantom is still on the table and even still in development.

-TKO

If I had a dollar for everytime we heard that coming from the 21st camp flashback to the A-10....beating a dead horse

[Coreyeagle48]

Greetings:

I think 21st had big ambitions when it announced the Phantom. We will never know if they had a 1/18 scale prototype or not, or if they announced the airplane to simply squash the Admiral version that was due out. The truth we will never know as that is between the two companies. I believe there are certain people who know the truth that visit the forum, but I doubt we will ever know what that actually is.

I agree with some that 21st has a lot of history of announcing that things are in development and they end up taking years. There have also been times when the companies surprise us and all of a sudden a new release shows up in the stores. So we have had it both ways.

I feel some of the issues here are created by folks who push push push for an airplane. A company announces an airplane and immediately people are "want want want" and "now now now". It just doesn't happen that way in the world of toy marketing. Even new sandwiches at McDonalds take years to develop and get out into the stores. The F-4 is going to be a complicated airplane when/if it shows. Do you want it right and to work well and have good quality or do you want a piece of garbage. If the Phantom came out in December, a piece of garbage is just about what you would have. Give them time to get it right.

[Jason of Admiral Toys]

On a last note look what the competition did for the me-262. Both companies made their best products and it shows…both are great looking models that showcase two different versions of that aircraft.

Dear VMF115,

It is only competition if one knows they are competing. We had no idea that 21st was making their versions of the ME262 at the time ours was completed with production.

We came out with our best product “to date” because we will improve on the detail and quality of each model we produce.

Regards,
Jason

Before anyone asks question, I am only on the second or third page of this post. I will read it all and answer as I go. Thanx

[digger]

I understand your posts clearly. (that is, 21st rarely tells you squat and it is usually long after we found out from another retailer, etailer or other member), and somehow we should appreciate their lack of communication or concern for their website and fans.

You can't be serious....sometimes new info pops up here before Area 21, but I doubt you saw the new figures, the King Tiger proto, the Platoon figs, the 88 proto, the Pak 40 proto, the halftrack variants, the M17, numerous 1:32 AC, the TRU announcement, or countless other bits of info anywhere else first. If you did, I would have hoped you would have shared..

[Jason of Admiral Toys]

where does it say the 262 retails for anywhere near $90?? It is $65 (or less) at BCT, whose prices are not really low and it will probably be $40 at WM.

21c said their F-4 is going to retail for $89.99 and i'm sure it will.

This statement is probably true and that is unfortunate for the online retailer. To the best of my knowledge 21st’s wholesale price for the 262 is near if not $44.00, if they sell it at WM for $40…. Hope for the online retailers that this is not true.

Add a near $44.00 wholesale price and the cost of shipping to the retailers, overhead and the requirement for the retailer to price the product to post a profit, and you get a price around the mid $60.00 range.

Regards,
Jason

[CW4USARMY]

Dude (digger)

Yes, the figures were found at Walmart before they were even announced. Same goes for some of the halftracks. And as for the platoon figures........what platoon figures, the ones we were shown two years ago? LOL! . Anyway, I didnt say all news was scooped on this forum but to say we get lots timely info from 21st (that turns out to be credible) is stretching it a bit. This, like other topics, is one we will have to agree to disagree on. It just got turned up a bit when TKO decided to single me out. But, if you check the past few years history, every time I started to post about lack of info, and TKO fired back, we suddenly had good info from 21st. So what the hell, I'll be the fall guy (instead of a suck up) if it means new info will come

[hworth18]

Greetings:

I think 21st had big ambitions when it announced the Phantom. We will never know if they had a 1/18 scale prototype or not, or if they announced the airplane to simply squash the Admiral version that was due out. The truth we will never know as that is between the two companies. I believe there are certain people who know the truth that visit the forum, but I doubt we will ever know what that actually is.

I agree with some that 21st has a lot of history of announcing that things are in development and they end up taking years. There have also been times when the companies surprise us and all of a sudden a new release shows up in the stores. So we have had it both ways.

I feel some of the issues here are created by folks who push push push for an airplane. A company announces an airplane and immediately people are "want want want" and "now now now". It just doesn't happen that way in the world of toy marketing. Even new sandwiches at McDonalds take years to develop and get out into the stores. The F-4 is going to be a complicated airplane when/if it shows. Do you want it right and to work well and have good quality or do you want a piece of garbage. If the Phantom came out in December, a piece of garbage is just about what you would have. Give them time to get it right.

I agree Corey..
I spoke with a "high-up" 21st Century rep soon after 21st announced the Phantom and I was told that 21st had the Phantom in development and the ONLY reason they announced when they did was because Admiral announced theirs.. 21st was put in a position that even though they weren't ready, they had to say something..
I do wish that there could be communication between companies so they aren't competing for the same dollars, but in the real world, it ain't gonna happen.. One company will always be announcing something the other is making and vice-versa, but it is up to the individual companies to make the decision to continue on and take the chance, or "back-burner" it and possibly never touch the subject again..
Unfortunately, Some folks here don't want to wait, they want everything right now, and are willing to string companies up by their nuts if they don't deliver when they should.. I collect many scales and I also see this attitude in 1/32 and 1/72 scales.. But we need to remember that if manufacturers made everything we want right now, this wouldn't be much of a hobby, now would it??

[Jason of Admiral Toys]

Dear Members,

I am on my way to Dallas for an Admiral Toys Incorporated Board of Directors meeting. I should have more information about this “back burner” statement posted on this site, and more about various other projects.

Remember, this post might list this aircraft as on the back burner, but, I think we are still ahead of the game:



I do think that the F-4 is a viable, beautiful aircraft in 1:18 scale. We have one in solid plastic to prove this point. BUT, I have said this before, and I will say it again: An $89.00 retail price is not possible for Admiral Toys Incorporated and I am happy for the collectors that 21st has promised an $89.00 retail price. (This looks more like a wholesale price to me!) But they say they will give it to you for $89.00 and that is an amazing deal for you.

I am of the opinion that, even if AT offered the F-4 at $80.00 retail, there is not enough room in this market for two manufacturers making the same “large” aircraft. Truth be told, we were on the fence offering this model by ourselves. We know the numbers we produce and the numbers the secondary markets can handle. If we had the guarantee sales from TRU or WM it may be a different story. But still with TRU or WM, $89.00 would be a HUGE stretch.
Here is a little inside info. Tooling on this model for AT, 21st or BBI would be over $100,000.00, tooling costs are tooling costs. One facility does not offer much more of a deal over the next, even when done in house as ours is. “On top” of the tooling cost, add the cost of production, (this means the injection, paint, tampo-printing, decals, final production ((this is the putting of the whole thing togethre)) royalties, packaging, shipping, all other overhead, insurance, on and on and on…. Yes this is per model. Divide that by the numbers produced and you get the amount needed to just break even! Two years of your life is a lot of work and time to just break even.

Therefore, we needed to reconsider the F-4. It is not canceled; it is on the back burner. This means we have a model, it has been CAD filed and could start tooling tomorrow or next year. I know this uncertainty upsets you and you want the answers. But the Freedom of Information Act does not cover toy manufacturers. I try to give you news you can use when I can. The irony of this is that this thread is a prime example of why I cannot give you all the information I know. Some companies play one way, the others another, we have to play by the rules of the company that is willing to hurt you the most. This means limited information.

Regards,
Jason

Post Script
I am going to copy this post to the DFTS thread. Read for a second time only if you wish.

[Spudkopf]

G'day Jason

As I said over in the other thread, this is indeed sad news and I hope you are able to re-visit the F-4 project some time in the future as I have a bad feeling that the other F-4 will go the same way as the A-10 with all those less than convincing exuses as to why it was not produced.

[CW4USARMY]

Greetings:

I think 21st had big ambitions when it announced the Phantom. We will never know if they had a 1/18 scale prototype or not, or if they announced the airplane to simply squash the Admiral version that was due out. The truth we will never know as that is between the two companies. I believe there are certain people who know the truth that visit the forum, but I doubt we will ever know what that actually is.

I agree with some that 21st has a lot of history of announcing that things are in development and they end up taking years. There have also been times when the companies surprise us and all of a sudden a new release shows up in the stores. So we have had it both ways.

I feel some of the issues here are created by folks who push push push for an airplane. A company announces an airplane and immediately people are "want want want" and "now now now". It just doesn't happen that way in the world of toy marketing. Even new sandwiches at McDonalds take years to develop and get out into the stores. The F-4 is going to be a complicated airplane when/if it shows. Do you want it right and to work well and have good quality or do you want a piece of garbage. If the Phantom came out in December, a piece of garbage is just about what you would have. Give them time to get it right.

I agree Corey..
I spoke with a "high-up" 21st Century rep soon after 21st announced the Phantom and I was told that 21st had the Phantom in development and the ONLY reason they announced when they did was because Admiral announced theirs.. 21st was put in a position that even though they weren't ready, they had to say something..
I do wish that there could be communication between companies so they aren't competing for the same dollars, but in the real world, it ain't gonna happen.. One company will always be announcing something the other is making and vice-versa, but it is up to the individual companies to make the decision to continue on and take the chance, or "back-burner" it and possibly never touch the subject again..
Unfortunately, Some folks here don't want to wait, they want everything right now, and are willing to string companies up by their nuts if they don't deliver when they should.. I collect many scales and I also see this attitude in 1/32 and 1/72 scales.. But we need to remember that if manufacturers made everything we want right now, this wouldn't be much of a hobby, now would it??

I agree, some folks just want everything now, and then there are others (myself included) who just want a little consumer relations professionalism from 21st. The above post by Jason is a classic example of caring about customers and trying to keep us informed. Hasbro does the same thing with the Star Wars line and they have a regular Q&A posting at several fan sites. Just seems to me that 21st could spend a little time and effort to inform their collector base, even if it is just to say that nothing new is comng out for the next quarter. At least we could feel like we know SOMETHING! Doesn't cost them anything but a little time. With a regular trickle of news, I doubt there would be so much angst on the part of those who feel like 21st takes us for granted. Is it really too much to ask for 21st connect with us on a regular basis?
Lord knows, (and so does the wife ) that I've done my part to keep them in business, how about a little gratitude.

[KAGNEW]

thanks for the info Jason.

the F-4 and F-104 are my favorite jets, i hope you get to make the Phantom some day

[olifant]

Dear Jason/TKO/21C toys:

I am so happy that there is money to be made producing plastic models of aircraft and tanks. I understand that it is a business and sometimes I have to be patient without knowledge of what is coming through the pipeline.

I collect mainly 1/32 and have been pleased as pie to see releases this year with no warning whatsoever. It is almost better to be surprised.

Keep doing what you are doing by making tremendous products and I will continue to buy them. You are not bound to communicate your every move to me, and I am glad to hear from you when you have time.

Once again, keep doing what you are doing! It is good enough for me.

[CW4USARMY]

As UT fans would say, "noob"

[digger]

Yes, the figures were found at Walmart before they were even announced. Same goes for some of the halftracks. And as for the platoon figures........what platoon figures, the ones we were shown two years ago? LOL!

Check your dates...trust me you are wrong. Figs were shown on Area 21 LONG before they showed up at Wally (I know, I was waiting for them). Halftracks too - remember certain people's dismay with the pioneerwagon? You saw the Platoon protos with the static legs 2 years ago? Who do you know?

As for Andrew and Jason's assertion that the 262 will be at WM and will be $40, the offer a friendly wager still stands...

[mccarthy1028]

Thanks for the helpful post Jason... This means a lot to myself and im sure the rest of the avid 1:18 collectors... Keep up the helpful posts, and information...

[DocTodd]

Jason, I appreciate your candor and willingness to help us understand the situation. I know it helps me to understand some of the processes that go into model making.
Thank you again,
Todd

[tko211]

My last post was in reply to CW4- but not intended as any insult... As it states, just a "readers digest version" to help answer the question, that is also the title of this thread.

Hope that clears things up.

Also what is noob? Maybe I live in the wrong state?

[grunt1]

Turns out it has military origins so I can claim I'm not completely de-railing this fine thread..

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-noob.htm

[tko211]

Fiero Dude, just clued me in! For those who don't know, noob is in reference to a newbie!

Learn something noob everyday here!

[Jason of Admiral Toys]

Yes, the figures were found at Walmart before they were even announced. Same goes for some of the halftracks. And as for the platoon figures........what platoon figures, the ones we were shown two years ago? LOL!

Check your dates...trust me you are wrong. Figs were shown on Area 21 LONG before they showed up at Wally (I know, I was waiting for them). Halftracks too - remember certain people's dismay with the pioneerwagon? You saw the Platoon protos with the static legs 2 years ago? Who do you know?

As for Andrew and Jason's assertion that the 262 will be at WM and will be $40, the offer a friendly wager still stands...

I want to clear up that I never said it will be a $40 retail at TRU or WM. I was just going off what history has shown, and I see the proposal as a valid guess. 21st has a habit of offering to the online retailers at the wholesale price what is very close to the retail price at WM. Remember Admiral Toys is associated with a retail store that sold 21st models until we were banned from doing so.

But I might just take your bet if you give me plus or minus $5.

Regards,
Jason

[Jolly Roger]

Check your dates...trust me you are wrong. Figs were shown on Area 21 LONG before they showed up at Wally (I know, I was waiting for them). Halftracks too - remember certain people's dismay with the pioneerwagon? You saw the Platoon protos with the static legs 2 years ago? Who do you know?

As for Andrew and Jason's assertion that the 262 will be at WM and will be $40, the offer a friendly wager still stands...

I want to clear up that I never said it will be a $40 retail at TRU or WM. I was just going off what history has shown, and I see the proposal as a valid guess. 21st has a habit of offering to the online retailers at the wholesale price what is very close to the retail price at WM. Remember Admiral Toys is associated with a retail store that sold 21st models until we were band from doing so.

But I might just take your bet if you give me plus or minus $5.

Regards,
Jason

im ASSuming band means "Banned" and who pardon me, had the balls to say not Admiral Toys. I would like to know, as a paying consumer, who !does not want to offer the products i would like to buy.

i would like to know due to the already growing number of retailers on my S-list. if anymore issues arrise, i might start only buying from E-tailers.

[VMF115]

My last post was in reply to CW4- but not intended as any insult... As it states, just a "readers digest version" to help answer the question, that is also the title of this thread.

Hope that clears things up.

Readers digest....lol.....to read more like a Clif note's LOL







For Jason:
That F-4 looks mean.
can't wait to get both 21st and AT version. real slick....